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chek at 22:15 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I can't see any moral quandary with leaked documents, paticularly when those documents detail the efforts to promote short-term gain for already privileged interests at the expense of the common good. And when those efforts include a planned and financed program to subvert the teaching of children and students in service to those interests, that's beyond reprehensible. Heartland and the whole rancid, well-financed underbelly of denialism needs to be investigated by the DoJ or a similar high powered agency with real teeth. -
Lloyd Flack at 22:03 PM on 15 February 2012Climate mythbusting at Lane Cove, Sydney on Feb 28
I'll be at this presentation. I can usefully help John answer any statistical questions. -
bill at 21:42 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
People, people! Did the Watts crowd tie themselves in knots agonising over the CRU Hack? This is a political fight, fer Chrissakes, not Philosophy Club! You didn't do anything wrong, the information is irretrievably in the Public Domain; now get to work! Try beating up your opponents, and not your allies, eh? There's, um, rather a lot at stake, after all. Imagine if Julian Assange had carried on like this... -
Paul D at 21:33 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Follow the money? Well if you are motivated only by money, then I guess this is the result. There are millions of teachers and other professionals write materials about climate change for average wages. But I guess fat cats need an incentive to do the same for the market interfering Heartland Institute. -
logicman at 20:55 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
macoles #50 I agree that whistleblowing is lawful. The laws of the US, UK and many other common law jurisdictions specify that the unveiling of wrongdoing is in the public interest. The US statute law on whistleblowing can be traced back to the civil war when unscrupulous merchants sold bad powder to the Union army. There is a vast body of case law in common law jurisdictions which permits governments to recover any losses suffered by 'the people' as a result of false claims which have caused the people financial losses. In the US a whistleblower is guaranteed 15 - 25 percent of funds recovered plus legitimate costs. A procedure at law known as qui tam permits any citizen to sue on behalf of the government. It is a suit by an informer on behalf of the government claiming that a wrong has been committed against the people according to a specified statute. There can be no argument of wrongdoing against any person who acts within the law, provided only that the Nuremberg principle does not apply. The Nuremberg principle specifies that obedience to law is no defence against a breach of the fundamental human rights recognised by all civilised nations. The Heartland whistleblower acted lawfully, q.e.d. - and I would add: ethically. -
dorlomin at 20:23 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Man Desmogged are goiong to need some lawyers. I can predict a load of legal action over this. From those docs Heartland could be in hot water with the tax people over their non lobbying status. Well I think the gloves will be coming off. If these are legit then its going to really hurt the disinformers. Good stuff. -
Doug Hutcheson at 20:17 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
The argument that we (I) have used ill-gotten documents has merit, as far as it goes. I personally have no knowledge of how the documents came to be exposed and accept that there may have been misbehaviour in their release. I considered that situation before posting my comments here. Having said that, I regard some of the content of the documents as being objectionable to a reasonable person. The objectionable information requires no spin, no quoting out of context, no contorted lying about what is said. I am satisfied that exposure of the activities of the Heartland Institute is in the interests of the public, both in the USA and world-wide. Action - or more accurately, inaction - on Climate Change by legislators in the USA has repercussions for all the world's citizens. We all lose when systematic and well-funded misinformation affects the quality and impact of education and political ideologies. So, have I compounded a possible misdemeanour by reading and commenting upon the leaked documents? In my own little way, yes. Do I claim the moral high ground? No. Have I scolded deniers for the theft of the Climategate emails? No, I have always attacked the misinformation spun from the stolen material, just as I am now attacking the information in the Heartland Institute documents. The leaks on both sides are a fait accompli and I am only interested in exposing what passes for the Truth in each case. Do I have any regrets? No. Do I place the future of mankind higher than the rights of the Heartland Institute to pervert the education system? Yes - unequivocally. Does that make me a bad person? Not for me to judge. -
Tom Curtis at 20:15 PM on 15 February 2012NASA Mission Takes Stock of Earth's Melting Land Ice
Norman @64, where you have a shallow water table, you can dig a hole, and when you get to the point where the bottom of the hole fills with water, you have reached the water table. Above that point the soil may well be moist, and water from that soil will evaporate, or be taken up by roots and transpirated. Where the water table is shallow enough, the water in the soil will be replenished by capillary action, thus allowing some of the water in the water table to escape by a combination of wicking and evaporation/transpiration. Likewise, if the water table is very shallow and breaks the surface in a low lying area, it can form a lake or soak, from which evaporation will escape directly. Finally, a deep penetrating cave or mine shaft can penetrate the water table such as at Weebubbie Cave, thus allowing evaporation to escape:Cave Diving in Australia - Weebubbie Cave from oxy-doc on Vimeo.
However, the total evaporation from these effects is small in relation to the total amount of ground water, and escape by these mechanisms is small relative to both the total land surface evaporation and relative to total artificial and natural withdrawals from the water tables (although for some shallow water tables it may be a major or dominant form of water loss). The extent of evaporative loss of ground water is certainly not sufficient for you to use total land surface evaporation as a proxy for natural ground water losses, still less identifying them as you did @54. This response is not an invitation to continue the conversation, but merely to clarify a point on which I was insufficiently clear. If you would like me to think well of you, stop cherry picking. It is your most persistent and unendearing feature in post after post and topic after topic on this site. -
GreenCooling at 20:09 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Come on folks, it's not that hard, there is a very clear moral imperative at work here. If someone working at Heritage could see that what they were up to was wrong, and thought spreading false information is deceptive and misleading (here in Australia these are crimes for those engaged in commerce under our trade practices law, now known as the Competition and Consumer Act), and/or endangering the public interest, it is entirely proper for them to arrive at a decision that their obligation to tell the truth to the world is greater than any contractual duty of confidentiality they may owe to their employer. Perhaps the most honourable thing for them to do would be to quietly resign, but for all our sakes I hope we see a lot more from them... -
macoles at 20:03 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
AT@45 and PC@46 Many countries have Whistleblowing laws designed to protect people who provide information exactly like this. No country has laws to protect hackers gaining similar information. A commonly accepted definition specifies that 'whistleblowing’ is: … the disclosure by organisation members (former or current) of illegal, immoral or illegitimate practices under the control of their employers to persons that may be able to effect action. http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2004-05/05rn31.pdf -
Dikran Marsupial at 20:01 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
@Actually thoughtful I am not convinced that the distinction between illegal and immoral is the point where whistleblowing moves from acceptable to unacceptable. It seems to me that plenty goes on in the world of business that is technically legal, but unethical and/or immoral and not in the public interest. I suspect that the action of whistleblowers in such circumstances has occasionally resulted in changes in legislation to close loop-holes in the law that are being exploited to the detriment of society, which suggests that simple legality is not the best criterion as the law is sometimes inadequate and needs patching. The point is that the ethics of whistleblowing are not clear cut. It would be nice if we could all just stick to the science and act in a rational manner in accordance with our best understanding of the relevant issues. Unfortunately this isn't going to happen any time soon :-( -
GreenCooling at 19:58 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw@31 &20 - I have to join with the other above who've correctly pointed out that leaking is a fine and legitimate tradition in Western democracies, or do you think Wikipedia and Julian Assange have been barking up the wrong tree too? In the late 1990's the world had a remarkable insight into the world of anti-environmental in a book written by New Zealander Nicky Hager based on the leaking of a literal filing cabinet of documents called "PR spin Secrets and Lies: The Anatomy of an Anti-Environmental PR Campaign", which was co-authored with Bob Burton and published in 1999. It documents the public relations information put out by Timberlands West Coast Limited in order to win public support for logging of native forests on the West Coast of New Zealand. It broke new ground in the understanding by progressive movements of the forces ranged against them. It would never have happened if some courageous office junior hadn't said to themselves "this is wrong, and the world needs to know about it" - and then was smart enough to go to Nicky, who has since written several other high impact exposes of injustice and political skull-duggery. Leaks and whistle-blowing happen all the time and are an important check on the abuse of power in open societies. I can only speculate about what motives anyone would have for opposing this, but naivety is certainly the most generous. -
Philippe Chantreau at 19:53 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
AF, I do see what your point is, however (posted a little too fast) and it is valid. The political battle is indeed dirty business. I won't go to the "they started it" argument. It is unfortunate that it came to this. Tobacco harmed in more ways than just COPD, heart disease and cancer. It brought the bullshit wars to the point where most regular people can't tell what's real anymore. That the media is no more qualified than the public and feels obligated to always present "both sides" does not help. We live in a time when there is no reality, only opinions to be manipulated. Reality always catches up of course. For smokers, it takes some years and manifests most of the time as COPD, of which an exacerbation combined with pneumonia will usually lead to the end. For GW, we'll see. -
Philippe Chantreau at 19:40 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Actually thoughtful, there is a major difference here. Someone who was involved at a level deep enough to have access to these documents found it necessary to have them exposed. Someone with a conscience thought about it and made the decision. It is not at all like a hack who certainly was paid for his/her performance. That is why whistleblowing is so unlike hacking. Nobody leaked the UEA e-mails because nobody believed that there was really anything to leak, anything that was objectionable enough to be revealed. The e-mails were stolen then carefully cherry-picked and misrepresented to ensure maximum effect. Someone involved with Heartland believed these were bad enough that everybody should be aware of their existence. I guess there is hope after all. -
actually thoughtful at 19:33 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Dikran Marsupial - I agree. I was using Tom Curtis's analogy regarding embezzlement and burglary. As much as I abhor, detest what the Heritage Foundation does, and consider the Heritage Foundation to be evil, I am not aware of anything they were doing that is, in fact, illegal. Whistle blowing would seem to require an illegal activity that is exposed through the action of the whistle blower. If I missed that then I apologize. Without an illegal activity, we have a group actively working against the future of mankind, but not doing things that are explicitly illegal (some would say a synonym of this is "Congress"). Heritage has rights. They were violated. It wouldn't be a moral dilemma except for the fact that the violation of their rights benefits mankind (possibly - it depends if the media grabs onto this like they did the climategate thing - that is unknowable at the moment). After all, these budgets and memos aren't warming the planet and melting the glaciers - excessive CO2 emissions are - and that was established scientifically long before this, long before climategate. There is no scientific battle - there is only the political battle left. Lots of fantastic science left to do, but none that will change our actionable understanding of the problem. And winning political battles appears to be a dirty business. I think acknowledging the moral conflict is honest, and serves us well. This genie isn't going back in the bottle, but to stridently claim that this is remarkably different that the theft of the emails rings hollow and shrill, and is going to interfere with the real story. Always disarm your opponents strongest argument at the outset. Acknowledge the source was stolen documents. Then talk about what is IN those stolen documents. Win the political battle. -
Dikran Marsupial at 19:08 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
actually thoughfull wrote "indeed I would take embezzlement as a worse crime because of the betrayal of trust" The whole point of being a whistle blower is that the person concerned realizes that their trust was misplaced. While employers should feel they have a right to rely on the trust of their employees, they have a responsibility to be worthy of their trust. It is a two way street, with rights come responsibilities. -
Dikran Marsupial at 19:02 PM on 15 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
I suspect the Jasper Kirkby talk was this one. N.B. If he is right, it makes the "its the sun" argument rather interesting if more solar irradiance makes surface temperatures fall! -
actually thoughtful at 19:01 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I am glad Daneel Olivaw raises the point that these are ill-gotten documents. It at least introduces a moral quandary, and realize the first line of defense from the deniers will be "what happened to your pious, sanctimonious drivel about stolen documents". This is a moment that we will learn something about ourselves (and indeed at the current ratio of 17:1 we now know). Using the term "whistleblower" makes us feel better. Rationalizing that this is for the good of humanity (which I happen to agree with) makes us feel better. Perhaps it comes down to the fact that I make no moral distinction between burglary and embezzlement (indeed I would take embezzlement as a worse crime because of the betrayal of trust). Just as freedom of speech necessarily implies tolerance for hate speech, claiming the moral high ground in terms of how information is obtained necessarily implies not getting some potentially damaging information (say the budget and internal operating memos of the Heritage Foundation). At a minimum, it would behoove us to acknowledge we are ceding that portion of the high ground. Self awareness is a valuable asset. Would knowing the identity of the "whistle blower" make this any more morally palatable? I don't think so - as the core issue is that these documents were obtained against the will of the document owners, and while I completely agree with Tom Curtis that the funding information SHOULD be public knowledge, the fact is it is NOT public knowledge, and this document cache is much larger than just who the funder are. I wonder if the Heritage Foundation will claim they are just forged documents? -
Bernard J. at 19:01 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Lloyd Flack's comment at #7 pre-empted my thoughts after reading the Anticlimategate* material, but it bears repeating... The Denialati are not interested in science, they are intent on the promulgation of propaganda. This says everything about the veracity of their 'case'. And what's the story with almost $100k for another surface stations project for Watts? Have they forgotten already that both Menne et al 2010 and their own sanctioned BEST [sic] project confirmed that there is no story there, other than what the professional scientists had said all along? I almost hesitate to use the word, but 'whitewash' anyone? Another thing: there has always been a clamour from the contrarians for various scientists to release their emails because they are public servants. Well, if the denialist lobby is intending to become involved in pushing curriculum units in public schools, doesn't that make them liable to the same requirement for public scrutiny? Can we now expect their all of email exchanges to be released? Geese and ganders, after all... Finally, Stevo, I wouldn't call you pessimistic, but realistic. The difference between smoking and global warming is that the whole of humanity and the biosphere is involved in the latter, most with no choice in the matter, and the warming/change is a juggernaut that can't be stopped once the momentum has significantly started. The smoking/harm relationship may be thought of as an arithmetic one and reversible except for the direct (usually voluntary) victims, where the emissions/harm relationship is geometric and irreversible even for people/species that have/had no involvement. [* Sorry, Lloyd, but the -gate is too juicy to resist.] -
Rob Painting at 18:45 PM on 15 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
jimb - "Climate models may have the wrong sign for solar irradiance forcing" What??? Do you have a link to the video? -
GreenCooling at 18:32 PM on 15 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
Many, many thanks Dana for this dissection of Dr Vahrenholt's deceptive drivel, I've been having a very robust debate with a pack of redneck deniers on a LinkedIn "HVAC Professionals" topic ("Is R410a WORSE for the environment than R22?") now approaching 650 comments, quite a record I understand! A couple of them have got excited that Vahrenholt is some kind of conclusive proof that they are right, and the "climaterrorists" and "ecoscammers" have finally been proved wrong, so it's been great to serve this back at them in response. I'm sure it won't change the minds of the chief protagonists, but many looking on will hopefully find it persuasive. Just wanted to express my thanks for all the work that goes into SkS and let you know how useful it is, all power to your efforts. -
jimb at 18:17 PM on 15 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
Just watched video of Dr. Jasper Kirkby (of recent CERN fame) giving a presentation at Simon Fraser University in 2011, where he set out his position that GCR levels/Solar levels were very closely correlated with temperature records for the past 9,000 years. He notes that correlation does not equal causation, and that his experiments at CERN are designed to test his hypothesis re causation. (i.e. CLOUD) He concludes his presentation with a summary slide, a portion of which states; 1.Solar contributions for 20th Century climate change are poorly understood, 2. Climate models may have the wrong sign for solar irradiance forcing and 3.there is possible unaccounted solar indirect forcing. This seems contrary to most of what I understand from this site, but it is probably due to my limited science background. -
Sascha Tavere at 18:15 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Well, I shall be writing two e-mails today: One to Naomi Oreskes wishing her a very happy day and one to Microsoft. -
Lloyd Flack at 18:06 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
One thing, no more "gate" please. I'm not the only person who find suffixing every claimed scandal with "gate" to be irritaing. Something else please! Now, what does this actually reveal? Well, nothing that we didn't suspect. They are talking about raising money but there is no indicatation that money is their primary motivation. Everything that they say supports claims of a primarily ideological rather than pecuniary motive for their actions. There is little talk about scientific reasons. Granted, I would not expect to fing a lot about the science in the plans of a political body. They have already sold themselves on the science and believe themselves. But they only talk about attacking the science of others and do not talk about any attempts to understand the climate themselves. This is, I think, revealing about the mindset. What would be a bad idea is to force these revelations into a pattern that maximises how righteous it feels to oppose them. I am talking about focussing on the money and ignoring the blindness that ideology can bring. -
owl905 at 17:48 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
"The environmental movement needs voices devoted to sound science ... " http://heartland.org/issues/environment -
Brian Purdue at 17:45 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw@31 - Naivety will not save the planet. Whistle blowing is a legitimate and necessary way of exposing things against the public interest. In this case, the interests of the planet we call home. If you recollect, deniers first blamed someone within the East Anglia CRU because it added to their “claim” of a cover-up but it was illegal hacking of emails that went through the public airwaves that were used to try to discredit these scientists. You can be pretty positive these documents never got outside the confines of the Heartland Institute, so whistle blowing was the only way this was going to get out. -
Bert from Eltham at 17:43 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
So now the truth is out. It is not interpolation or extrapolation but projection! Bert -
Steve L at 15:52 PM on 15 February 2012New research from last week 6/2012
Thanks Ari. I think the Classic of the Week is really a great idea, too. -
caerbannog at 15:46 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
It would be interesting to compare the "pay to talent" ratios of the denialists with those of James Hansen, Michael Mann, Ben Santer, etc. To keep the numbers on the same page, you'd have to plot them on a log scale! -
GreenCooling at 15:39 PM on 15 February 2012It's CFCs
Sorry to discover this one a little late in the piece, I fully concur that it is incorrect to blame AGW entirely on CFCs, but I do think the contribution of the Montreal Protocol to reducing climate change is under recognised - both in terms of the abatement achieved to date by phasing out consumption of CFCs, and what it could yet do by financing recovery of ozone depleting CFCs and HCFCs, and by expanding its scope to address rapidly increasing HFC emissions. The best paper explaining this in the literature is Velders et al (2009) and briefing papers by the Environmental Investigation Agency are well worth reading in order to track this issue. The importance of looking at the 20 year Global Warming Potential values of HFCs is highlighted in this previously unpublished graph, which has recently been included in a Greenpeace International paper here. As the experience of getting rid of CFCs shows, this is a relatively easy task compared with abating CO2 emissions. While this remains of paramount importance, we are about to make the problem a whole lot worse if we continue to fail to take swift and serious action to prevent the projected volume of HFC emissions from occurring.
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Tom Curtis at 15:38 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw @31, you are entitled to your own opinion (which is a polite way of saying that you are wrong). However, with hacking there are two questionable actions: a) The acquiring of information by an unauthorized person by illegal means; and b) The revealing of information to unauthorized people. With leaking, only the second applies. That is a clear difference. It is the same sort of difference that allows us to distinguish between burglary and embezzlement. Further, regardless of what various so-called "skeptics" claim, the fact remains that the Norfolk police are conducting a criminal investigation into what they believe was a hack. The so-called "skeptics" may know better, but only if they know who did it, in which case they are accessories after the fact by not reporting that information to police. Finally, regardless of the merits of this particular leak, it is in the public interest to know when particular commentators are being paid for the opinion they hold. I think it should be a matter of law that think tanks and lobby groups should be required to detail: 1) Who has paid them what, and what are the conditions of the grant; and 2) What moneys they have paid out to whom, and what are the conditions of the grant. Failing such law, democracy devolves to plutocracy with the highest anonymous bidder calling the shots. The ethical problem with this leak comes primarily from the fact that it presents a partial picture, rather than from any possibility it fails a public interest test for whistle blowing. -
Doug Hutcheson at 15:18 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Daneel @ 31, here is a difference: UEA emails were cherry-picked and quoted out of context, deliberately distorting their content and misrepresenting the intent of the authors; Heartland documents are being quoted verbatim and context is being given, without lies, spin or distortion. Like the UEA emails, these documents are now in the public domain. Were they stolen? Were they obtained by hacking into computers? Were they leaked by a legitimate whistle-blower? No doubt, Heartland will expand their budget to include monies to obtain legal redress, if a crime has been committed. The future of the planet is being threatened by organisations like Heartland, who do their best to obfuscate and disinform legislators on matters relating to the climate. For good or ill, the genie is now well and truly out of the bottle. I am happy to do my best to ensure that the cork cannot be replaced. -
skywatcher at 15:18 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I wonder how the Web's self-styled "#1 science site" meshes with receiving funding from a source comitted to "... dissuading teachers from teaching science". Will we hear dear old Anthony decry the Heartland Institute for being deliberately anti-science and returning the funding he's been given? Or will Watts tacitly accept he's also anti-science and give up his "#1 scinece site on the Web" tag? I suspect a big hypocritical dose of neither... -
Doug Hutcheson at 15:04 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Glenn @ 28, Your figure for the NIPCC report is a bit low. It is actually at total of $1,593,000, with payments to lead authors accounting for $467,000 of that. See "Table 2. Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) Budget: 2010 - 2013". It seems that the price has gone up since the days when treachery could be bought for thirty pieces of silver. -
DaneelOlivaw at 15:00 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Sorry, but I don't really see much difference; hacking or leaking... the end result is that private documents are being made public and that is ethically (if not legally) wrong. Besides, the denialist crowd has also claimed that the UEA emails were leaked. From their side, the hacker actions were also justified since they view climate scientists as a threat in a similar way that we view professional deniers. I understand that some times the ends justify the means BUT I think that's at leas a conversation worth having. There is a moral component to reading and using this documents. Also, there's an argument about maintaining the moral high ground and not stooping to their level. -
Stevo at 14:58 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Dale There is a big difference between hiring a person to educate the general public about the findings of peer reviewed science and paying backhanders to selected persons for the purpose of keeping the public misinformed and in the dark about it. -
Stevo at 14:51 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
adelady, as ever your masterly way with words has lifted my spirirts. After that quick squirt to my armpits I'm already feeling refreshed. (I shall press the metaphore no further.) DaneelOlivaw, I've gotta agree with Phila and Steve L. These documents were leaked by a whistlebolower and not stolen or hacked. As far as we can see they are complete documents. The onus is upon us to neither misquote nor misrepresent them. Let the ugly truth speak for itself. -
Glenn Tamblyn at 14:46 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I just tried posting a couple of comments over at WUWT, wondering what theur response might be to DenialGate. Instead of the usual awaiting moderation message nothing appeared at all. So I thought something had gone wrong and resubmitted the comments. And got a 'you have already posted that comment' reply. So they have them but they aren't coming up. Very queer. I wonder if they have gone into lock-down. Anyway, these were the comments I posted to no avail - maybe Anthony might get around to responding when he is a little less busy: =============================================================== Since you don't have a post up yet about Denialgate, I will comment here and you can then transfer comments across when WUWT does comment. One important comment that struck me from Heartlands little treasure trove was this this juicy little gem: “Development of our “Global Warming Curriculum for K-12 Classrooms” project. Principals and teachers are heavily biased toward the alarmist perspective. To counter this we are considering launching an effort to develop alternative materials for K-12 classrooms. We are pursuing a proposal from Dr. David Wojick to produce a global warming curriculum for K-12 schools. Dr. Wojick is a consultant with the Office of Scientific and Technical Information at the U.S. Department of Energy in the area of information and communication science. His effort will focus on providing curriculum that shows that the topic of climate change is controversial and uncertain- TWO KEY POINTS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE AT DISSUADING TEACHERS FROM TEACHING SCIENCE (my emphasis).We tentatively plan to pay Dr. Wojick $100,000 for 20 modules in 2012, with funding pledged by the Anonymous Donor. Cant have teachers teaching now can we. And pay a lot of attention to the ‘Anonymous Donor’ We will no doubt hear more about them, whoever they are. And generous to a fault: 2006 – $1,559,703 2007 – $3,277,000 2008 – $4,610,000 2009 – $2,170,590 2010 – $1,664,150 2011 – $979,000 Nearly 15 Million ponied up so far to fund the denial machine in just one ‘dont think tank’. Wouldn’t we love to see similar accounts from all the other dont think tanks. In the best of American traditions. You can always get what you want if you are willing to pay enough for it. And so the dumbing down of America continues…. =============================================================== Anthony, when will the new Temperature website be up and running? I'm sure Heartland and their Anonymous Donor would like to know their $88K is being well spent. And nearly $400K for the NIPCC Report. A bit pricy don't you think when the scientists who work on the IPCC report do it Pro Bono. Still $144K for Craig Idso, $60K for Fred Singer, even $20K for Bob Carter down in Australia. One only needs a few nice gigs like that and you have yourself a 'nice little earner' as they say. ============================================================= -
adelady at 14:35 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Stevo@14 "Looking at ..... leads me to feel that the job of sowing doubt has already succeeded. Have people had long enough to make up their minds, set their opinions and move on ...?" I know it's depressing Stevo but there are positive indications. The FUD campaign on tobacco did delay action, but action was eventually taken. These clowns are now fighting a rearguard action in most countries and looking to new markets in others rather than pursuing or expanding a successful strategy. Public views on smoking changed and we now have effective programs in place. My other example might surprise you. Deodorant. No effective deodorants were available in the 50s. By the end of the 60s absolutely everybody used deodorant. Except for a few diehards .... who claimed that such fripperies were unmanly. (I worked with such a bloke in the 70s who used the 'unmanly' argument. Walking into his office on a warm afternoon when he'd ridden his bicycle to work in the morning was a great incentive for concise speech and brief conversation.) I suspect we're moving, however slowly, into the only-the-diehards-say-deodorant-is-unmanly stage of climate discourse. -
Phila at 14:27 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw, I would not condone this type of action and I think SkS and the rest of the (true) sceptical community should make this very clear. Sorry, but I absolutely condone this type of action. I consider it a totally valid instance of whistleblowing. Given the stakes for all life on Earth and the secrecy of groups like Heartland, I think it's not just defensible but necessary. If anyone reading this has access to similar documents, I hope you also find the courage to do the right thing. Just one man's opinion, of course. -
Doug Hutcheson at 14:22 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
It seems they also have issues with freedom of information. Under "Overheads" in the 2012 budget we find:An estimated $36,000 to pay lawyers for litigation over whether Heartland can be forced to hand over records of conversations with a donor of some five years ago. Maureen Martin, our legal counsel, is working with a lawyer in Madison County, which is [d]ramatically reducing what would otherwise be the cost.
They don't like the tables being turned, apparently. -
john byatt at 14:17 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
#1 Dana, Australian Dr Wes Allen "weather makers reexamined" seems to have relied heavily on Idso's misrepresentations of the science for his book of fantasy. . . -
scaddenp at 14:15 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Someone asking Bill Gates about Microsoft funding Heartland? Not exactly in line with Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation I would have thought. -
Norman at 14:15 PM on 15 February 2012NASA Mission Takes Stock of Earth's Melting Land Ice
muoncounter @65 Ok, I am done. Sorry for the off-topic chatter. Daniel Bailey does frequently warn me to stay on topic. Tom Curtis @63, Thanks for the link to the Konikow paper, I did read it. -
Tom Curtis at 14:11 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw @20, there is a difference between the University of East Anglia emails, which where hacked (aka, stolen) and these which are reported to have been leaked. As such, the proper comparison (if you want one) is not to the UEA emails, but to the leaking of the Round 0 draft of the next IPCC report. There is an issue about leaked documents, ie, do they represent an illegitimate violation of confidentiality, or are they whistle blowing on matters kept secret in which there is a legitimate public interest in their disclosure. On the other hand, there is no question that hacked information is stolen; and once stolen their leaking may be an illegitimate violation of confidentiality or legitimate whistle blowing, but that does not change the nature of the original criminal offense. -
Steve L at 14:04 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DaneelOlivaw -- I agree that stealing is bad. Do you know these were stolen? When can it be confirmed that these documents were or were not stolen. -
DaneelOlivaw at 13:54 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I would add that this documents, just as the climategate emails, were stolen. I would not condone this type of action and I think SkS and the rest of the (true) sceptical community should make this very clear. That said, Holly Sh*t -
Doug Hutcheson at 13:48 PM on 15 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Australian readers will be interested in part of the 2012 funding for the NIPCC (Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change), showing links between Heartland and our very own IPA (Institute of Public Affairs):
The anti-science brigade have long arms and deep pockets.Table 3. 2012 Personnel Budget for NIPCC Project Payment/month Name Chapter Institution Country $1,667 Robert Carter Co-Editor James Cook University & Institute for Public Affairs Australia -
JP40 at 13:40 PM on 15 February 2012Climate change policy: Oil's tipping point has passed
Getting off coal and oil electricity is what I meant. The main issue with efficiency is efficiently transfering the high-energy protons to electric current. Of course, if less than 1 percent of the money that goes into Tritium-Deuterium fusion, those issues would be solved much quicker than with only 1 colege professor and 5 graduate student working on them. Here is a link to a page you might want to read. http://www.thespacereview.com/article/536/1 -
muoncounter at 13:40 PM on 15 February 2012NASA Mission Takes Stock of Earth's Melting Land Ice
Norman#61: Your AGU reference points up a major flaw in your argument. “The rate of depletion increased almost linearly from the 1960s to the early 1990s,” says Bierkens. “But then you see a sharp increase which is related to the increase of upcoming economies and population numbers; mainly in India and China.”--emphasis added Here's a graph of sea level rise:
-- source
The sharp increase in groundwater withdrawal does not appear in the sea level curve; groundwater cannot be a significant factor.
This off-topic distraction must cease.
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