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Comments 1 to 50 out of 59:

1. shoyemore at 05:14 AM on 19 November, 2011
   The fact that no Republican Congressmen attended this hearing is depressing, and indicative. What are they afraid of? It is not long since Dr Richard Muller was the "Great White Hope" of denialism. Here is a short clip of Muller's testimony from Huffpost - he draws a clear distinction between "scepticism" and "denialism". However, it is clear he classes Anthony Watts and Steve McIntyre as "sceptics". He is in for a shock. He also appeared on US TV, where he admitted blogosphere reaction was "volatile", something which got a laugh. Richard Muller at Congress Clip Richard Muller on "Morning, Joe" US TV
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2. dhogaza at 05:45 AM on 19 November, 2011
   Technically, they've not classified pizza as a vegetable, just the tomato sauce on the pizza, making the pizza itself a "vegetable dish" :) Congress works in mysterious and subtle ways ... Great summary of the hearing.
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3. John Hartz at 10:33 AM on 19 November, 2011
   “It’s politically dangerous for prominent Republicans to acknowledge climate change is real and that human activity plays a prominent role,” he said. ”It could be that Gingrich is just trying to play a political game and stick with the political orthodoxy to keep himself from being vulnerable to attacks.” – Jim DePasso, the policy director for Republicans for Environmental Protection Source: “Gingrich Defends Shifting Statements on Climate Change” ABC News, Nov 18, 2011
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4. barry at 13:57 PM on 19 November, 2011
   The Nth verification that even with the uncertainties it's an issue "worth addressing". As aggravating as Muller's positioning is, the result is probably useful. AFAIK political momentum on carbon policy has been stagnant in the US, so while Muller's skepticism made little difference on that front, the well-publicised BEST results, and Muller's own take on policy have probably tipped the scales towards action.
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5. apiratelooksat50 at 14:14 PM on 19 November, 2011
   The Natural Resources Committee website states: "The Natural Resources Committee consists of 48 Members, 27 Republicans and 21 Democrats." From the above article: "Unfortunately, the Republican anti-climate science trend continued, as no Republican congressmen attended this briefing." As far as I can tell, other than Markey, none of the Democratic members attended either. Waxman is not a member of the committee. Apparently there is political disinterest amongst both parties.
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6. actually thoughtful at 14:49 PM on 19 November, 2011
   "No Republican attended the briefing" - predictable but very telling. It is hard to maintain your position that it isn't happening when well respected members of the scientific community are telling you it is.
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7. actually thoughtful at 14:56 PM on 19 November, 2011
   Apirate - when you are teaching a unit on ocean ecosystems to your class, and the brightest kids are away at a debate camp, and the least motivated kids are out "sick" - who do you think will most likely makeup the work and achieve the learning goals you had for that lesson?
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8. apiratelooksat50 at 15:08 PM on 19 November, 2011
   AT @ 7 I am not sure what your point is. This article is clearly political in nature. If Republicans are ridiculed for not attending, then the Democrats should be as well. "Maybe Congressional Republicans will find some time to listen to climate scientists when they're finished classifying pizza as a vegetable."
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   Response:

   [DB] "If Republicans are ridiculed for not attending, then the Democrats should be as well."

   You conveniently ignore the reasons for the briefing in the first place:

   • Since gaining control, Congressional Republicans have held one climate hearing, and mostly invited climate fake-skeptics to testify
   • The Republicans have since refused all Democrat requests for further climate hearings
   • the Republican-controlled House has voted 21 times to block actions to address climate change, including a vote to deny that "climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities and poses significant risks for public health and welfare."

   If your position is that these statements of facts are 'holding Republicans up for ridicule' then you quite plainly will be considered to be leaving the realm of "debate" and joining them in their war on climate science.

   I'm a Republican and I approved this response.

9. dana1981 at 15:40 PM on 19 November, 2011
   apirate - most Congressional Democrats don't deny basic climate science, so there's not as much need for them to attend these sorts of briefings/hearings. Though I would certainly prefer if they would attend as well.
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10. chriskoz at 21:49 PM on 19 November, 2011
    Would that situation in the House change after 2012 elections? How likely are DEM to regain the control? Given econo troubles in US, voters are very unlikely to consider AGW as their top priority. So current situation is very likely to continue for at least few years unless some strong international pressure forces REP to change their stance or another extreme event like Katrina will have them re-evaluate priorities.
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11. les at 22:07 PM on 19 November, 2011
    IMHO American colleagues should take this issue very seriously not just regarding climate policy, but for the broader 'anti-science'/pro-lobby way Washington has evolved into operating. Read this article, which at first is amusing and then horrifying...

    ...we live in America, where people, who have been elected to public office, do not believe in climate science, but do believe pizza is a vegetable.

    I can't see the Dems, Reps or Teas chaining that....
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12. minglewood at 00:07 AM on 20 November, 2011
    Climate skeptics are alive and well on the web. Against my better judgment, I posted a rebuttal to a fella who insists that there are plenty of peer-reviewed articles against AGW. His response was: "Here is a list of references","What exactly disqualifies them as 'climate science'", and "How could I so flippantly attempt to dismiss 30 plus scientific articles many of which are peer-reviewed". The link he provided, https://docs.google.com/viewer. Cannot believe that even after the BEST results, that Congress cannot get its act together to help squelsh the myths that keep getting repeated daily on the web.
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13. Bernard J. at 01:02 AM on 20 November, 2011
    It seems apposite to recall how pre-emptive was the film Erik the Viking, with respect to Republican (and Australian Federal Coalition) attitudes to climate science.
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14. Tom Curtis at 01:33 AM on 20 November, 2011
    Bernard J. #13, not sure that this will work, but here goes:
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    Moderator Response: [Sph] Width/height adjusted to fit in 450 (640, 360 changed to 450, 253).
15. John Hartz at 01:55 AM on 20 November, 2011
    “Once again, people want something for nothing. “According to a poll by The Economist, 79% of respondents say that they who would support political reforms combating climate change if those changes had no effect on their real income. But the number completely collapses when you ask if they have to take a 5% reduction in income through higher taxation in order to achieve that. When some sort of carbon tax is introduced to reduce carbon emissions, support for climate change policies goes from the vast majority saying yes, to the vast majority saying no. Only 26% say they would support reform if it led to a decline in their real income of more than 5%. “The online poll was taken by participants at The Economist’s online Global Energy Conversation conference. The virtual event took place in London, Washington and São Paulo on Friday.” Source: “Climate Change Policies OK, So Long As It's Tax Free, Poll Says” Forbes, Nov 18, 2011 To access the entire article, click here
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16. Phila at 02:38 AM on 20 November, 2011
    The Republican justification for missing this briefing was that they are focusing “on creating jobs and promoting common-sense solutions that protect both the environment and the economy.” It'd take another blog the size of this one to present the multiple lines of evidence demonstrating that the exact opposite is true.
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17. Bob Lacatena at 03:17 AM on 20 November, 2011
    16, Phila

    ...promoting common-sense solutions...

    A useful definition...

    Common Sense (n.): 1) Not well thought out. Based on over-simplified logic and a dearth of facts. 2) A thought process representative of the mistakes made over and over by people who don't take the time to learn and understand things just a little better. 3) A term used to make the ignorant and inadequate feel as or more powerful than those who put serious effort combined with substantial intellect into solving problems properly.

    As a side note, I have always contended that the term "conventional wisdom" is an oxymoron.
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18. dhogaza at 03:55 AM on 20 November, 2011
    oxymoron fight!
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19. Dave123 at 06:52 AM on 20 November, 2011
    @Minglewood at 12 You can respond to such a "skeptic" by rejoining that the AGW community is well aware of the small number of peer-reviewed papers that are in opposition to mainline AGW. You can then point him to the two articles on this in SkepticalScience- Here: Powell Project 1 and Here: Powell Project 2 Then you can ask your new friend if he knows how many papers there are supporting the mainline view, and ask how he can flippantly dismiss those thousands of papers. Then you can start getting mean. You can ask him which of the papers he's read, and why he agrees with them. The odds are 1) he hasn't read any of them, and is running a bluff with numbers. 2) that there is an established debunking of the paper. Look- it's isn't Congress' job to squelch myths...and it wouldn't be a free country if it was. It's our job. Keep up the good fight! Remember that the goal isn't to convert him, but to make clear to bystanders that our side can stand up for itself in any forum.
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20. Patrick Kelly at 06:57 AM on 20 November, 2011
    Sphaerica @ 03:17

    I have always contended that the term "conventional wisdom" is an oxymoron.

    This little gem embodies all the offensively elitist attitudes that are so offputting to so many people. You, the great unwashed are dumb. We, the elites, are the only ones who can "save the earth." You will do as we say and we have ways of making you do it. Shades of 1930s Russia, the modern day European Union and everything Orwellian.
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    Response:

    [DB] You have yet to post even one comment here that has added to the dialogue in any way.  It is tiresome and unoriginal.

    Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right.  This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.

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21. heystoopid at 07:02 AM on 20 November, 2011
    "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." Winston Churchill
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22. adelady at 07:18 AM on 20 November, 2011
    Phila "It'd take another blog the size of this one to present the multiple lines of evidence demonstrating that the exact opposite is true." Well, one thing this blog provides for such a project is a handy indexed list of topics. All you need is to get a few people together and start with the top ten Climate Myths from the left hand column. Then work your way through to No. 172. No need to do Basic, Intermediate, Advanced versions. Just show us all how it's done.
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23. jimb at 07:32 AM on 20 November, 2011
    Patrick Kelly @20 It appears that the 'elites' you complain about seem to have forgotten "the ways of making you do it." They have had to try convincing people by drawing conclusions based on facts.
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24. John Hartz at 07:38 AM on 20 November, 2011
    THE PAST MONTH hasn’t been good for climate-change skeptics. At a congressional hearing Monday, Richard Muller, a former global-warming skeptic at the University of California, Berkeley, told lawmakers that, after a two-year review of historical world temperature data, he has verified the scientific consensus that the earth is warming — by about 1.6 degrees Fahrenheit over the past 50 years. This is not surprising; as the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reported last year, the warming of the planet, detected in multiple, independent lines of evidence, is “unequivocal.” Source: “A bad month for climate-change skeptics” Washington Post Editorial Board. Nov 18, 2011 To access this editorial in its entirety, click here.
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25. DMarshall at 16:37 PM on 20 November, 2011
    It seems that the real powers in the American Republican Party are Rush Limbaugh and Grover Norquist. I don't think any of the current crop of their candidates are willing to alienate both these pundits. Since Limbaugh has proclaimed global warming to be a hoax and Norquist is opposed to tax increases or any non-rightwing-sanctioned government expenditures, there's no hope for progress if the Republicans take the Oval Office and keep their hold on the House. If that happens, only a revolutionary breakthrough in super-cheap, ultra-efficient, clean energy production will make a difference.
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26. Clippo UK at 21:41 PM on 20 November, 2011
    I have been a ‘follower’ of this site for a number of years and I avidly read every article you post here. Keep up the good work. I also ‘debate’ mostly Climate Change on a UK political forum – although ‘debate’ is a misnomer because those who are anti- AGW continually recycle the age old ‘doubters’ misinformation and just cannot accept their views represent the tiniest minority of science in the world. However, my reason for posting here is that I regard much of the US Republican leadership as falling into the same denier group and who will not be persuaded by logic. So, what’s to do about it? My opinion is that politicians are mostly motivated by ‘self-protection’ and should their fallacies be exposed publicly, they may start to change their tune. Again, imo, most people, even very intelligent ones, are influenced by respected experts in the media – e.g. newspapers and television. Therefore, I say that pro-AGWarmers should actively develop alliances with various media forms to find ways to ferociously denounce the deniers – especially politicians like the US Republican hierarchy. This won’t be at all easy – especially in the USA and maybe to a lesser extent in Oz. For example, currently on BBC in the UK they are showing programs fronted by Sir David Attenborough of life in polar regions, - (and as an aside, the quality is no less than astounding), - but I understand the last episode to be shown in a few weeks will address thinning of the ice due to AGW. Yet, the BBC announced this week that in selling this series of programs worldwide, this last episode will be left out in the USA, (& maybe Oz – not sure of that). Also, several years ago the BBC did a series of 3 programs by the geologist Iain Stuart called “Climate Wars” which showed many of the famous deniers ‘unfavourably’ for want of a polite description. The BBC has not published this series on DVD – draw your own conclusions. So, a fantastic site doing a really good job but realistically only a tiny proportion of the world’s population looking. If I could do something practical I would - but I hope there are readers here who may have some clout/media connections to fight back through the media against the silly and even malicious deniers.
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27. John Hartz at 02:47 AM on 21 November, 2011
    “Look at the 94 of 100 newly elected GOP members of Congress who have either said flat-out that they believe climate change is a vast hoax or that they have signed pledges to oppose any mitigation efforts. And this goes against all the evidence presented to every government around the world, including our own. This also extends to people like John Boehner, who has advocated in the past for teaching creationism in science classes, and who claims to believe that climate scientists are saying that carbon dioxide is a carcinogen.” Source: “How Ignorance, Greed and Ideology Are Warping Science and Hurting Democracy”, Rolling Stone, Nov 15, 2011 To access this timely and insightful article, click here.
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28. John Hartz at 02:51 AM on 21 November, 2011
    “As science writer Shawn Lawrence Otto points out in a tough-minded new book, Fool Me Twice: Fighting the Assault on Science in America, too many Americans are either plain ignorant of science or actively hostile to it, or both. And that's as true of political leaders and journalists as it is of ordinary citizens (to say nothing of corporate leaders who see action on climate change, say, as a threat to the bottom line). We think climate change is a hoax; we're convinced vaccines cause autism; we truly believe – as Newt Gingrich claims to – that embryonic stem cell research involves killing children.” Source: “How Ignorance, Greed and Ideology Are Warping Science and Hurting Democracy”, Rolling Stone, Nov 15, 2011 To access this timely and insightful article, click here.
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29. apiratelooksat50 at 02:54 AM on 21 November, 2011
    Actually, the tomato sauce on the pizza is what is considered the vegetable. And, since tomatoes don’t lose any of their nutritional value in high heat processing, canned tomatoes and tomato sauce are both just as viable and beneficial as fresh tomatoes. Maybe the Congressional Republicans know a little more than one might think. (Note: Technically tomatoes are a fruit since they have seeds.) "Cooking tomatoes in oil encourages intestinal absorption and results in a two-to-threefold rise in plasma lycopene concentrations," said Dr. Giovannucci. "Tomato sauce is one of the best lycopene sources." Source: Giovannucci, Edward et al., "Intake of Carotenoids and Retinol in Relation to Risk of prostate Cancer," Journal of the National Cancer Miracle Nutrient That Can Prevent Aging, Heart Diseaseand Cancer," Advanced Research Press, Inc. 1999. Hauppauge, N.Y. "The best food sources of lycopene according to the Tomato Research Council in New York City: ( Amount of lycopene in one ounce) Tomato Sauce, Spaghetti Sauce, Ketchup (5 mg); Tomato Soup, Canned Tomatoes, Tomato Juice, Vegetable Juice (3 mg); Minestrone Soup, Vegetable Soup, Pink Grapefruit (1 mg)"
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30. dana1981 at 03:13 AM on 21 November, 2011
    apirate - nobody is disputing the nutritional value of tomato sauce. However, there is very little tomato sauce on a slice of pizza, and to allow pizza to be considered a 'vegetable dish', the Republicans had to decrease the amount of tomato paste that counts as a full serving [I believe it ended up being 2 tablespoons]. Defending a move to allow a slice of pizza to replace a serving of vegetables on our kids' lunches is kind of absurd, IMO. But regardless, this is quite off-topic. The pizza = vegetable issue was merely an example of the many things Republicans think are more important than climate change. Please stay on topic.
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31. apiratelooksat50 at 03:40 AM on 21 November, 2011
    Dana1981 @ 30 I was merely responding to what was posted in the article. Perhaps it was off-topic to even include that statement in your post. In regards to your post at #9. The Dems should have been there in force regardless of their perceived knowledge. Their absence, along withe the GOP, is an indicator of the growing indifference to AGW. Regardless, politics and science are strange bedfellows.
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    Response:

    [DB] "The Dems should have been there in force regardless of their perceived knowledge."

    You continue to rationalize zero attendance by the Republicans, the anti-science party (by their own statements).  The facts remain that:

    • the world is warming
    • mankind, through it's fossil fuel emissions, are the cause of the majority of the temperature rise of the past 40 years
    • the country responsible for the largest portion of those fossil fuel emissions over that period is the United States
    • the leadership of one of the two largest political parties in the United States, the Republicans, denies the very science underlying most of the technological improvements of the past 100 years.

    That is denial of the fake-skepticism kind.  QED.

32. Philippe Chantreau at 04:14 AM on 21 November, 2011
    I don't have the kind of time necessary to check impact factor and specific claims from a journal named "Journal of the National Cancer Miracle Nutrient That Can Prevent Aging, Heart Diseaseand Cancer" but if this is really the name of the journal, I'd be, a priori, a little skeptical of anything published in it. And indeed, calling pizza a vegetable is absurd by any stretch of the imagination.
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33. muoncounter at 04:35 AM on 21 November, 2011
    In a strange way, this cherry pick of the lycopene content of tomato sauce is a good example of denial mentality. Choose a single isolated fact and ignore the rest of the evidence. In a single slice of frozen pizza:

    Calories 340 Sodium 740 mg Total Fat 18 g Potassium 0 mg Saturated 7 g Total Carbs 30 g Polyunsaturated 0 g Dietary Fiber 5 g Monounsaturated 0 g Sugars 1 g Trans 0 g Protein 17 g Cholesterol 25 mg

    Thus the denier can justify CO2 as plant food and black as white as long as the emissivity of the black object is greater than 0.
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34. JMurphy at 06:04 AM on 21 November, 2011
    And there's another example of so-called skepticism obvious from apiratelooksat50's use of copied 'facts', especially the use of the seemingly important

    "Source: Giovannucci, Edward et al., "Intake of Carotenoids and Retinol in Relation to Risk of prostate Cancer," Journal of the National Cancer Miracle Nutrient That Can Prevent Aging, Heart Diseaseand Cancer," Advanced Research Press, Inc. 1999. Hauppauge, N.Y.".

    This seems to be a hodge-podge of several different things plastered together by someone and copied willingly by another. apiratelooksat50's source may be tomatofest.com (who I'm sure are totally unbiased in this matter !), although several sites contain the exact same wording and grammatical errors. Edward Giovannucci's publication list contains nothing from the 'Journal of the National Cancer Miracle Nutrient That Can Prevent Aging, Heart Diseaseand Cancer' (unsurprisingly) and that 'Journal' is apparently printed by Advanced Research Press, which seems to be a one-man band operation involved in fitness & health magazine publishing in Ronkonkoma, New York. So it may possibly have been re-printed in that magazine in 1999, as suggested. The paper "Intake of Carotenoids and Retinol in Relation to Risk of prostate Cancer" was actually published in 1995 in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, but Giovannucci did publish another paper in the same Journal in 1999 - "Tomatoes, tomato-based products, lycopene, and cancer: review of the epidemiologic literature." So, quite a feat of so-called skepticism involving no scepticism of the source whatsoever...
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35. scaddenp at 07:52 AM on 21 November, 2011
    When all this denial leads to massive issues for the next generation, one wonders what the legacy of this generation will be. For Republican's especially, it would seem likely they will be regarded much as Germany's post-war generation regard (and disrespect) the wartime generation - "how could they be so deluded"
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36. actually thoughtful at 07:52 AM on 21 November, 2011
    Apirate - this is actually a classic case of one party claiming the exact opposite of what is happening. Democrats, when they had control of the House, passed comprehensive cap and trade legislation (which had pros and cons). Now they are actively working to get America back to work. Republicans fought cap and trade, and publicly complain that the scientifically established fact of man-made climate change is a HOAX. So Republicans NEED the education offered at the committee meeting, while the Democrats, while they might benefit, don't NEED it. Meanwhile, whatever the Republicans are doing in the House, it is objectively true that it is not creating jobs (source: US unemployment level - unchanged since the Republicans ascent to power in 2010). You seem to be falling for the fallacy of false equivalence. While a pox on both their houses seems satisfying, it ignores the fact that one political party is actively against science, and one is not. I continue to be surprised that you, a science teacher, keep finding yourself more compatible with the party on record as against science.
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37. dana1981 at 09:55 AM on 21 November, 2011
    apirate - what was posted in the article were some examples of issues which congressional Republicans apparently think are more important than attending a climate science briefing or holding a hearing on the issue. Among those was declaring pizza a vegetable (or 'vegetable dish', if you prefer). While I think that action is utterly stupid, and think it's astonishing that you would defend it (especially since, if I recall correctly, you're a teacher whose students' health will be adversely impacted by this decision), the point of the article was a) the discussion of climate science at the briefing, and b) the universal congressional Republican anti-science stance While it would have been nice for congressional Democrats to have attended the briefing, congressional Democrats have already voted to pass a climate bill, and have repeatedly tried to hold a climate hearing during this congressional session, only to be denied by the Republicans. Your focus on defending Republican efforts to categorize pizza as a vegetable dish - aside from itself being utterly ludicrous - only serves to distract from the anti-science stance of the Republican Party that is the point of this post. Henceforth I suggest we all abide by the policy DNFTT.
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38. Bob Lacatena at 11:24 AM on 21 November, 2011
    Pirate, The problem is that the Republicans are trying to steadfastly stick to a policy that is based on a complete lack of understanding of the science. That is unacceptable. They must either understand themselves or accept the position of the experts. One cannot make good policy from a position of ignorance.
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39. DrTsk at 16:03 PM on 21 November, 2011
    @dana1981 Your focus on defending Republican efforts to categorize pizza as a vegetable dish - aside from itself being utterly ludicrous - only serves to distract from the anti-science stance of the Republican Party that is the point of this post I disagree. I think it reinforces the point that most GOP'ers care more for the pockets of their benefactors (Big Oil/Big Food/Big Agro/Big Tobacc/Big Pharma..etc) than the lives of their kids and grand kids : * pizza is a vegetable * tobacco is good for you * drill baby drill with no regulations to check for spillage/polution * CO2 is good for you in large quantities * Generics are bad and many many many more examples...
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40. apiratelooksat50 at 03:13 AM on 22 November, 2011
    Dana @ 37 No matter how you word it, you still can't get around the fact that Democrats did not attend the briefing, either. Trying to do so is nothing more than a double standard. Congress actually did not vote pizza to be a vegetable. These links here and here provide a pretty good explanation of what happened. The bill was part of a larger budget cutting measure that both Republicans and Democrats participated in. The actual language in the bill that somehow got transformed into pizza is a vegetable was "(1) requires crediting of tomato paste and puree based on volume;". The link to the actual bill is here. Between the Senate and the House there were 20 Republicans and 18 Democrats on the Committees that approved the language in the Bill before it was submitted for voting. I don't disagree that pizza loaded with salty, fatty meats and cheeses can be unhealthy. But, tomato based products are generally healthy. The articles I linked to do a good job of explaining the reasoning behind the decision. I see daily what horrible diets our schoolkids have, but what they eat here is generally better than what they get at home. We do what we can with limited budgets and provide breakfast and lunch with healthy alternatives, but the kids shy away from them. Regardless, saying that Republicans voted pizza a vegetable is disingenuous and inaccurate. Just as saying they are anti-science is the same. It is all politics which should never be confused with science. What any politician votes for can be very different from what they believe/know. It is all about getting the vote, which is why you see several of the Republicans have changed their public stance on AGW.
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    Response:

    [DB] "No matter how you word it, you still can't get around the fact that Democrats did not attend the briefing, either."

    No matter how you word it, the inescapable fact is that an infinitely higher percentage of Democrats attended the briefing vs. Republicans (0).  But that is sophistry, like your rhetoric about tomato sauce.

    "It is all about getting the vote, which is why you see several of the Republicans have changed their public stance on AGW."

    Like Romney's flip-flopping to "curry" backing, perhaps?

    Enough with the sauce; please focus on substantive issues directly related to the OP.

41. Tom Curtis at 03:46 AM on 22 November, 2011
    pirate @40: 1) The wording of the act prevents any volume limit being placed on how much tomato paste or puree must be included before a meal can be considered a vegetable meal. Include a drop of tomato paste in your hotdog recipe, and hey presto!, the hotdog counts as a vegetable meal. The act is obviously absurd on that basis. 2) The whole act is obviously a compromise between many competing interests. The question, then, is not how voted for the overall compromise package (in committee stage or in Congress) but who put the amendment into the bill in the committee stage? Was it Democrats or Republicans who insisted that they would not pass key legislation unless pizza was counted as a vegetable meal and federal money was used to feed school children excessively salty chips. If the answer to that question is not a Democrat, then all your defense of a shabby deed is revealed as so much squidding (the production of clouds of ink for concealment).
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    Response:

    [DB] And let that stand as the final say on tomato sauce on this memorable thread.  Anyone else is interested, they will have to submit a guest post on the topic.  The tomato sauce/pizza-is-a-vegetable goalpost shift diversion is now OT.

42. dana1981 at 04:04 AM on 22 November, 2011
    apirate claims:

    "saying [Republican politicians] are anti-science is [disingenuous and inaccurate]."

    Actually it's factually accurate, as we have demonstrated repeatedly (see the above post and the links therein). Would you care to defend your false assertion that they are not anti-science, considering that for example, they voted to deny that "climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities and poses significant risks for public health and welfare"?
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43. muoncounter at 04:54 AM on 22 November, 2011
    pirate: "saying they are anti-science is the same. It is all politics which should never be confused with science." No one here is confused. Look here for choice examples of anti-science positions.
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44. les at 06:55 AM on 22 November, 2011
    41 - moderator DB I appologuse for serving up that somewhat cheesy diversion. Although I think that apirates splenetic defense is illustrative... ... and I've learned a new word.
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45. John Hartz at 12:58 PM on 22 November, 2011
    “Science-averse Republicans have once again blocked the establishment of a National Climate Service by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, moving from denial of man-made climate change to the denial of climate itself. “I’m very concerned that NOAA has taken steps to form what amounts to a shadow climate service operation,” House science committee chair Ralph Hall (R-TX) cried in September. At a hearing in June, Rep. Andy Harris (R-MD) blasted the budget-neutral plan to consolidate NOAA’s existing, widely dispersed, climate capabilities under a single management structure as “propaganda services.” In the committee report submitted by appropriations chair Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA) for the 2012 budget, the National Climate Service is expressly forbidden. Source: “GOP Deniers Block Creation Of Climate Service” Think Progress, Nov 21, 2011 To access the entire article, click here.
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46. John Hartz at 09:55 AM on 23 November, 2011
    Never underestimate the ability of the fossil fuel industry to influence what happens in the Congress of the United States. Energy companies continue to rake in massive profits. They use this wealth to leverage elections, write legislation, scale back regulations and escape accountability. Source: “The 5 Most Toxic Energy Companies and How They Control Our (USA) Politics” by Tara Lohan, AlterNet, Nov 20, 2011 To access this in-depth and hard-hitting article, click here. PS: The five most toxic energy companies are per the article are: 1. Chevron, 2. Exxon Mobile, 3. BP, 4. Koch Industries, and 5. Massy Energy
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47. apiratelooksat50 at 11:18 AM on 23 November, 2011
    John at 46 If you have a product that you can offer and make a profit, would you limit yourself? You need to think about the multitude of people who profit from a company that makes money. Workers, shareholders and executives. That is what a well-run business does. That is who we invest in. Is Coca-Cola evil because they make massive profits? Sure, successful companies can hire lobbyists and influence decision making on the political level. I'm no fan of that either, but I don't know of a better system worldwide. Plus, anything coming from alternet.org should be considered extremely biased.
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48. scaddenp at 11:39 AM on 23 November, 2011
    "Sure, successful companies can hire lobbyists and influence decision making on the political level. I'm no fan of that either, but I don't know of a better system worldwide. " Hmm. Well here in NZ, we have: - public funds used for election campaigning. Each party gets a share based roughly on recent popularity. This is an anathema to many but it puts campaigning on an even footing. - limits on campaign expenditure - no anonymous advertising. - political donations over NZ$30,000 (from memory) must be declared. The idea is severely limit the power of money to influence policy. To me, the US democracy look corrupt. It offers a way to buy power and influence. The world needs US citizens to fix it. You know you have succeeded when you dont have lobbyists (in the sense of people hired to talk directly to politicians).
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49. skywatcher at 12:14 PM on 23 November, 2011
    #47 pirate, if you think the US system is the best political system in the world, you haven't looked into other political systems. First, as scaddenp says, money utterly talks in US politics. You can't be a US candidate unless large sums of money are donated to you personally, allowing all manner of corruption from vested interests. It's all to easy for principles to take a back seat when an organisation comes up to a budding candidate and offers hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations, but might hint that taxes on rich/coporations might be best left low, and that it's not a great idea to act on climate change, for example. Secondly, due to the filibuster rules, US politics necessarily relies on compromise and discussion between the parties, something that just isn't happening at present with Republicans having sworn to make Obama a one-term president and oppose every single thing he does. So nothing gets agreed, even on debt or budget. Between these two facts, US democracy appears from the outside to be broken just now. You don't like the source of John's article. Do you have evidence that energy / FF companies are not using some of their profits to influence politicians in the USA? Here's some evidence in a Guardian article showing that even foreign FF companies got into the act before the US mid-term elections. I much prefer democratic systems like NZ or even the UK (and I think many European countries) where private funding of campaigns is much more limited, such as in scaddenp's post above. It doesn't prevent corruption, but it certainly doesn't aid it as in the US.
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50. John Hartz at 12:21 PM on 23 November, 2011
    @Pirate #47: You convenitnetly ignore the fact that the five companies listed have been in the vanguard of creating and perpetuating the Climate Denial Spin Machine. In addition, their environmental track records have been abysmal. BTW, Coca-Cola's environmental track record has also been abysmal.
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